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Old 06/19/2017, 05:53 PM   #1
CTaylor
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Vortec or Gyre?

Hi,
I asked this a long time ago. But I'm reading reviews on Vortec mainly that they dont last long. The inside portion often falls of for one. Gyre seems to last longer from the reviews.
That along with which has 'better' overall flow? As far as spread, and overall movement. I would also still want some not so turbulent areas of my tank so I can put my LPS like elgance, hammer, soft ricordeas also. 75% of the tank should have higher flow, a much smaller area not so much.

I would think I need 2 of each to get an alternating wave type action, right? I have a 65 gallon, but one day hopefully soon will upgrade to a 180 (after I move). So I was thinking along the lines of the MP40 vortec if I got that and possibly adding on a few power heads when I upgrade. Same idea with the gyre. The really expensive version, I just cant make sense of their cost.

Thanks!


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Old 06/19/2017, 06:31 PM   #2
jda
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Not focusing on the longevity, they do different things. Gyre creates static flow in a gyre pattern - they move a lot of water, but it is not all that effective, IMO. Vortec creates somewhat random and different flow. Something like a Tunze is a Vortech that you can point and dial in just a bit more. If you use a gyre, you will still need a random(ish) flow pump to keep from having dead spots in your aquarium, IMO.

I have not used a Gyre since I nearly always wait until a piece of equipment that is not all that important like a flow pump has a few years of reliable service before I will switch, but yes, there are a lot of failures.

I know that you did not ask, but I might suggest AquaMedic Ecodrift - they are reasonably priced flow pumps that are reliable (2+ years for me) and powerful.


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Old 06/19/2017, 08:25 PM   #3
CTaylor
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Hi JDA,
Those look good also. Good price for sure. I wonder how long they will last overall? I've had my tunzes in use overal for about 8 years. Only reason I was goign to replace them is b/c the impeller somehow gets stuck in the pump, causing that loud alarm. The impeller shaft and hole it goes in are totally clean. And same issue on both of mine. When i take the impeller out and wipe it, it works again for 1 hr to 2 weeks. weird. Hate to replace them for that, esp since the pumps might last forever if it wasnt that issue. But also the Tune's flow is target, not spread out like the vortec (I think ).


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Old 06/19/2017, 08:34 PM   #4
jda
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The Tunze have wide flow fronts for them... well at least the ones that I have do. Try running them in a diluted solution of Muratic Acid and see if that frees them up. Impellers are cheaper than new pumps.

Nothing that you buy will last as long as those except for new Tunze pumps.


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Old 06/19/2017, 10:18 PM   #5
CTaylor
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Hi,
Thanks for that reply... There is no buildup at all on the impeller except a tiny amount at the very base of the hole the impeller goes in. When I turn the impeller by hand there is 0 friction. And it does work for hours or days on end. But sometimes only for a few minutes after they have been thoroughly cleaned. I guess somehow the magnets are not lined up right anymore in the motor (or something like that). I was thinking of getting Tunze again, but the ones with the really wide opening are the ones that are about $400 each.
Mine looks somewhat like this: https://premiumaquatics.com/products...6085-pump.html. The output goes through a fairly wide opening, but it's still targeted about 3-4" in diameter of a flow.
This one: https://premiumaquatics.com/products...ater-pump.html at $500 , has openings on the side of its output, which I'm guessing would give it a wider diameter output. Why tunze can't put that same output on the less $ one (and less flow one), I guess they want to force you to pay a lot just to get the wide out put.


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Old 06/20/2017, 01:55 AM   #6
mike810
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I've had both gyre and vortechs for a number of years. The gyres require more frequent cleaning like every few months otherwise the flow will reduce down to nothing and eventually stop working. Once you clean it, it's good to go again.

The old mp40 and mp60 were great and lasted me years. I upgraded the drivers to the QD drivers which quiet down the pumps considerably. That's said, I cannot recommend the new mp40qd at all. I purchased four brand new mp40qd and two of the four pumps are crazy loud. Like, rattling something wrong with the wet side loud. I contacted ecotech several weeks ago and have heard nothing from them, no reply, nada. There are also plenty of post about the wet side corroding.

If I were you, I'd stick with gyre or tunze. Tunze have been a solid pump and their customer support has always been great.


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Old 06/20/2017, 04:20 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by CTaylor View Post
Hi,
I asked this a long time ago. But I'm reading reviews on Vortec mainly that they dont last long. The inside portion often falls of for one. Gyre seems to last longer from the reviews.

Hmm.... the gyre has been out what, 2 or 3 years, Vortechs are around 10 years old. How on gods green earth can you say the gyre lasts longer?

Ecotech Vortech line of pumps still remain the gold standard in pumps. Often imitated, never duplicated.


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Old 06/20/2017, 05:57 AM   #8
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Old 06/20/2017, 06:27 AM   #9
oseymour
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In the last 4 years I've used Vortech MP10, MP40, a couple different versions of Tunze, Gyre generation 1 and 2 and the cheaper Gyre called the Icap 3K.

I like the Vortech but my issue was I could not aim them. I was willing to buy new pumps rather than redo my entire aquascape. Also a little bit of planning would have done me well. If I didn't place the tank so close to the wall I would have place my Vortech on the back wall.

2 Tunze 6095 served me well. I added another once my coral started to grow and needed more flow. These are my favorite pumps of all.

I had the first generation gyre and loved it but it wasn't well built. Once I took it apart to clean it, it never worked well again and I gave up on it.

Now I have 2 of the 2nd generation gyre 230s on my tank creating a standing wave at about 60%. They move water throughout the tank. The entire tank gets covered with these. My issue is that it's a pain to program them but now that the programming is done they are working well.

Other thoughts
  • The gyres need to be cleaned more often maybe every 3 or 6 months or the flow drops off dramatically
  • The gyre is the only pump that I can place less than an inch below the water line. The tunze and vortech pull water from the top so they will suck air.
  • Yes there are no wires for the vortech in the tank but there is a huge portion outside, if it's in a viewing pane it can be annoying.
  • It takes a lot to break a Tunze or a Vortech. I've seen these pumps in use for years without cleaning and still work - covered in coralline algae. I myself have gone a more than a year without cleaning and they still worked.



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Old 06/20/2017, 06:45 AM   #10
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That's said, I cannot recommend the new mp40qd at all. I purchased four brand new mp40qd and two of the four pumps are crazy loud. Like, rattling something wrong with the wet side loud. I contacted ecotech several weeks ago and have heard nothing from them, no reply, nada. There are also plenty of post about the wet side corroding.
You probably got a flake of sand inside the magnet housing. It takes all of 2 minutes to pull the wetside apart for a rinse to fix it. There's no systemic issue with the QD's being loud; quite the opposite.


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Old 06/20/2017, 08:19 AM   #11
jda
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Hi,
Thanks for that reply... There is no buildup at all on the impeller except a tiny amount at the very base of the hole the impeller goes in. When I turn the impeller by hand there is 0 friction. And it does work for hours or days on end. But sometimes only for a few minutes after they have been thoroughly cleaned. I guess somehow the magnets are not lined up right anymore in the motor (or something like that). I was thinking of getting Tunze again, but the ones with the really wide opening are the ones that are about $400 each.
Mine looks somewhat like this: https://premiumaquatics.com/products...6085-pump.html. The output goes through a fairly wide opening, but it's still targeted about 3-4" in diameter of a flow.
This one: https://premiumaquatics.com/products...ater-pump.html at $500 , has openings on the side of its output, which I'm guessing would give it a wider diameter output. Why tunze can't put that same output on the less $ one (and less flow one), I guess they want to force you to pay a lot just to get the wide out put.
Ok. I hear ya. In the end, you will spend as much on other pumps as you would on new Tunze. If this is just about money and you are going to be reefing still in 8-10 years, then this will be the cheapest. If you just want to try something new, then that is a great thing to do with your money too - have fun and try stuff out. I would shocked if you get 8 years out of a vortech.


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Old 06/20/2017, 11:57 AM   #12
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I've had both Gyre 130/150 along with Ecotech Marine Vortech MP10/40.

They're all amazing and fantastic pumps.

On my previous tank (56 SPS Dominant @ 36x18x20) I ran two MP40 White Controllers. They worked great but were a little bit loud. I wouldn't have minded the slight hum if it wasn't 5-6' away from my bed. I replaced BOTH MP40's with 1 Gyre 150 shortly after I went bare bottom. Wow did it push flow AND I couldn't hear a thing besides when a snail shell was against it!! I mean, so much flow it was totally fine by itself. By as jda mentions, its a constant flow. I never thought about that as I saw everything in my tank moving happily.

Come to today, I downgraded to the Gyre 130 on my Reefer 170 since the 150 was just too darn big. I run it vertically in the corner and it works great for my tank. Researching into flow more, I now run a long pulse so its not a "constant" flow.

Got my house and now I'm upgrading to a 120 where I'll be doing two MP40QD's and 1 Gyre 130. Why both? Why not! I can create the random flow using the MP40QD's while having my Gyre 130 clash against the flow, therefore creating "chaotic" flow.

That being said, you really cannot go wrong with either or. You're going to hear about issues and what not with any pumps, even the Tunze's which are complete tanks. If cost isn't an issue, I would start with either 1-2 MP40QD's and add a Gyre when you can. Just to help create some crazy flow in your tank. You can always find used smoking deals as well on these pieces of equipment.

At this point it comes down to personal preference. Do you like the flow of the Gyre more? Do you like the controllability of the Vortech more? Its up to you!


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Old 06/20/2017, 05:02 PM   #13
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bulk reef supply put out a good video on flow recently, comparing flow and how different rock work impacts the flow differently.

so in some tanks a single gyre on 1 end will work great, others require 2, it's a less intense blast, it's spread out so you can have it directed at corals and still get tons of water movement.

I don't believe people anymore rely on random and chaotic flow, so much as the amount of flow and getting lots of water circulation is more important, especially to sps, it doesn't matter if it's random... i think that was an old theory from the wavemaker days.

I've had a gyre xf130 running on my 40 breeder for 2 years now and i've only cleaned it once.. still plenty of flow and works great... has some interesting turf algae on it.


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Old 06/20/2017, 05:07 PM   #14
jda
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I don't believe people anymore rely on random and chaotic flow, so much as the amount of flow and getting lots of water circulation is more important, especially to sps, it doesn't matter if it's random... i think that was an old theory from the wavemaker days.
I don't believe that this is true at all. Anybody who has dealt with dead spots, unnatural growth patterns and debris collection knows that random is better than static in any amount. I have seen this sentiment, but not only do I believe that it is not correct, I think that a lot of it has come from manufacturers that don't make random flow devices spreading and propagating the garbage.

If reefers are starting to believe this bunk, they will figure it out when their SPS all lean to one side, are skinny on one side and thick on the other. There are plenty of posts from a decade ago that harken this sentiment for strong static flow with weird growth patterns.

Bulk Reef Supply is an interesting source - remember that their videos are to sell products, not to educate or teach... which is good because they don't do a very good job of educating or teaching.


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Old 06/20/2017, 05:41 PM   #15
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Bulk Reef Supply is an interesting source - remember that their videos are to sell products, not to educate or teach... which is good because they don't do a very good job of educating or teaching.
I agreed with everything you said up to the above. Have you watched BRS's recent videos? Anything from the last 2 years? Unless they are straight up making up data and lying to people I would say that their videos do an excellent job of educating and teaching.

Especially recently, they have been placing some real world results to theories that I have been told since I started the hobby. Things that would be prohibitively expensive for the average reefer to do. I always wondered if cheato made a real difference of reducing nitrate and phospate? Or if I needed a refugium that is 20 to 30% of my system volume for it to make a match or if the homedepot grow lights really work at well as expensive refugium lights?

Yes I have read articles on advanced aquarist and other sites that say the same thing but BRS's videos are easier to understand than the scientific speak and head scratching formulas that some of those articles contain. I'm not bashing those articles but some of that lingo is above my head.

I would love to hear what others think about BRS's videos and wether they educate and teach or not, even if their primary business is to sell products.


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Old 06/20/2017, 08:11 PM   #16
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You probably got a flake of sand inside the magnet housing. It takes all of 2 minutes to pull the wetside apart for a rinse to fix it. There's no systemic issue with the QD's being loud; quite the opposite.
I have tropic eden grand select sand so they're pretty big. Even the , once I filled up my brand new tank and noticed how loud the two mp40s were, I took the wet side apart to inspect. I could not see anything out of the ordinary so I put it back together and installed it back on the tank. It's still very loud, I would compare the noise level to the old mp40wes but with a rattling noise.

I wish I had just waited and purchased these when I already had my tank but I ordered everything early in in the. Hold and that was like 6 months ago.


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Old 06/20/2017, 08:58 PM   #17
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I get where you are coming from, but I wonder if you will feel the same way once you get to the point where the lingo and science is in your wheelhouse. The typical BRS article has some nice points about some products that they sell with some on-the-surface upsides and downsides, but absolutely no nuance and details that, if know, might make a reefer choose another direction. The had videos on the pest free and easy aqua scaping aspects of dry rock without ever mentioning the year-long setbacks of bound phosphates and dried organics. The talked about using GFO and reactors from day-one in a new tank. Their video about PH probes made all kinds of people freak out that their PH got below eight at night... but they could buy some buffer to bring it back up (terrible idea), get a CO2 scrubber or buy some stuff for a fuge instead of just not worrying about it like you might get from a Dr RHF article. Some of their demo videos, like how to use a Hannah Checker are cool, but these are demos, not education.

If their new videos just regurgitate what you can learn here, then they might be better. The chaeto video where they had the four tanks and lights was full of bunk. They talk in the beginning about doing this to cut water changes in half or eliminating them without ever talking about how the chaeto will stop growing without the iron from the water changes (or supplementation which they also did not talk about), or the many, many other issues with stopping water changes. Stopping water changes can be dangerous to many reefers. Their conclusions were also wrong and sided on selling a Kessil - the weight of the chaeto ball is of no consequence since weight and size of the ball is mostly water weight and all of the N and P was used up anyway. What matters is that the N and P were at zero, but suggesting that you just get a CFL and clip-on light from Home Depot does not sell lights. In most cases, the smaller, dense ball of chaeto from the CFL would be better for most who don't have a 30G refugium. The did not talk about how the ball of chaeto can be even more effective if you continue to trim it. I am not saying that they made any of this up, but leaving out what they left out is not educational or teaching anybody anything.

The nuance, details and jargon in all of hose WWM, AA and RK articles is where the rubber meets the road and too important to not understand. Leaving them out of a video is dangerous, IMO.

BTW - I have no venom for BRS... they never claimed to be about anything more than selling products. I have never once heard to them sell themselves as educators or teachers.


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Old 06/21/2017, 07:56 AM   #18
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I have tropic eden grand select sand so they're pretty big. Even the , once I filled up my brand new tank and noticed how loud the two mp40s were, I took the wet side apart to inspect. I could not see anything out of the ordinary so I put it back together and installed it back on the tank. It's still very loud, I would compare the noise level to the old mp40wes but with a rattling noise.

I wish I had just waited and purchased these when I already had my tank but I ordered everything early in in the. Hold and that was like 6 months ago.
If it's making noise, then something is rubbing. The wetsides are pretty simple. If you can't track down what is colliding, then I'd *call* Ecotech. It's certainly not supposed to be that way.

I have Tropic Eden Reefflakes and they always get into the housing if I get sand through the wet side when it's running.


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Old 06/21/2017, 09:17 AM   #19
CTaylor
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Lots of good info. I'm 90% going to stick with TUNZE. I cant make sense of spending $800+ on two pumps to be happy they last more than 2-3 years. I'm not poor, but that just makes little sense. The "expensive" tunze I posted will do a good job, as the ones I have now have. Maybe a more targetted flow, but can be deflected off the glass etc, and it is a wider mouth and a huge flow. And it will last 8+ years. Maybe even way longer. And their customer service is amazing. It's that reliability factor in the end that wins.


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Old 06/21/2017, 10:38 AM   #20
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I cant make sense of spending $800+ on two pumps to be happy they last more than 2-3 years.
You can't make sense out of it because it isn't true lol. Vortechs are tanks, just like Tunze. You shouldn't judge a product by its exceptions.


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Old 06/21/2017, 10:55 AM   #21
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I'm not going to say Tunze isn't any good, because their stuff rocks, but Vortechs are going to last much longer than two years. I would say the average wet side life is probably three to four years and dry side more like eight to ten - It's completely dependent on how fast you run them and what the wet sides are exposed to.


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Old 06/21/2017, 11:11 AM   #22
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If it's making noise, then something is rubbing. The wetsides are pretty simple. If you can't track down what is colliding, then I'd *call* Ecotech. It's certainly not supposed to be that way.

I have Tropic Eden Reefflakes and they always get into the housing if I get sand through the wet side when it's running.
Of course and I already sent them An email. No reply, nada. Two out of four brand spanking new power heads, kind of ridiculous. I've never had this issue with the older mp40s. I set up over 10 mp40 and a couple mp60. All worked right out of the box. This new mp40qd wet side blows. If you spend $1400 on powerheads, they better work as promised right out of the box.


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Old 06/21/2017, 11:27 AM   #23
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Of course and I already sent them An email. No reply, nada. Two out of four brand spanking new power heads, kind of ridiculous. I've never had this issue with the older mp40s. I set up over 10 mp40 and a couple mp60. All worked right out of the box. This new mp40qd wet side blows. If you spend $1400 on powerheads, they better work as promised right out of the box.
Pick up a phone for god's sake.


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Old 06/21/2017, 12:06 PM   #24
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I think that VorTechs are really good products. Really good. They are not tanks. They need work and won't go eight years or a decade with only a cleaning every few years. However, it is not all that fair to compare everything to Tunze since the only things that live up to this are Askol based pumps, Iwaki/GenX/Panworld and Ranco controllers.


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Old 06/21/2017, 01:24 PM   #25
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I think that VorTechs are really good products. Really good. They are not tanks. They need work and won't go eight years or a decade with only a cleaning every few years. However, it is not all that fair to compare everything to Tunze since the only things that live up to this are Askol based pumps, Iwaki/GenX/Panworld and Ranco controllers.
Agree.....


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