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Old 05/14/2012, 10:07 AM   #51
CaptCrash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fla2341 View Post
CaptCrash: Any updates on your progress?
No real new progress, by the end of this week/early next week I will be offering a couple of different copepod species to my next batch larvae. Then hopefully within the next few weeks some ciliates. The ciliates look promising, though at the moment the University that is supplying them is having some issues with their culture. So Im having to wait.

I have been learning to use a microscope and splice pictures together taken with it, so that has been a bit of a learning curve.

Ill keep the thread at mbisite.org updated with progress.


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Old 05/14/2012, 10:47 AM   #52
Luis A M
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Originally Posted by fla2341 View Post
Please take a look at these photos. Does this look like their feeding? This is a 6 DPH Live Larval fish I just pulled out. The only food I can think of which is in there is ciliates, detritus and algae of the proper size. I've not added anything else and most of the water was boiled prior to addition of the eggs and algae water.
I can´t say this is not an empty gut.Sometimes you see yolk material being passed thru the gut.But the intersting thing is that the area looks bluish in your pics.see the pics of my older larvae where also a shiny blue area is seen on the sides.I imagined it was some reflection of iridiscent scales,only that larvae don´t have scales
And this doesn´t show in Baensch larval pictures either.


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Old 05/14/2012, 08:40 PM   #53
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CaptCrash: I'll keep looking. What copepods? Good luck

Luis A M: Ever been fishing? The blueish/white reminds me of the stomach wall membrane of larger fish I cought. I think that could be what we're seeing.


I just took these videos. The 1st one shows the size of the mouth gape and respiration. The 2nd shows what's floating in the water. In the mouth gape video the larva is about 2.5 mm TL showing about 2 mm in view. The mouth gape apears to be 100 microns or so from this baseline estimation. This is a 4 DPH larval fish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcSi0...ature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFMnF...ature=youtu.be


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Old 05/15/2012, 06:20 PM   #54
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The pH dropped from 8.3 to 7.6 over night. The ammonia rose to .25 as well even with Amquel. I went from 35-40 larval fish to 26. They were lethargic and just floating around. I started a 50% water change taking over 3 hrs to drip in the replacement water so the values didn't change immediately and shock the larval fish. I used the pair's tank water to do so. I noticed that the larva are now as actively swimming around as they were yesterday. I performed a 10% water change yesterday but that was obviously not enough.

In two photos below I show a 1" piece of PVC pipe, a collar made from a 1" T by cutting off one side and 120 micron fabric. I placed this into the jar and insert a 1/4" rigid acrylic tubing and air line to siphon and remove 1 ltr of old water.

Larval culture note: If using this method perform at least a 50% slow water change every day. The Nanno was thick in the jar and could have experienced a bloom. Also of note is the depth of water. They do much better with at least 5" of water colum and a really slow current.

Thoughts: The continued culturing of these larval fish requires a better method to control Ammonia and buffer/stablize pH( larger volumn, built in buffering capacity and incorporation of biological filtration). Small pH flux happens from night to day but the pH flux from last night was severe.

I established a 10 gallon tank 5 days ago in the event it is needed. I used 2 lbs of the argonite sand from the parents tank as well as the parents tank water - not boiled. I also added some of the nanno to lightly tint the water. I have 1 rigid air line bubbling in the darker corner for circulation. The sand has bristle worms - good for clean up - and nothing more. I planed on using this for larval rearing once I can get them passed the 10 day mark and they are eating.

I just looked over at the jar and saw three of them swimming horizontally, stopping mid water, lurch forward, then start swimming again to repeat the same thing. In every other fish I've ever reared this was a sign they were eating. Just what their eating I don't have a definitive answer - yet. However after viewing this I removed 23 and took the following 3 other photos which show 2 with different light exposures where you can see a brown spot in the stomach. Non of the other 21 sampled showed this spot although 2 others had markedly more of the irridecent blue occluding the stomach area.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Larval water change pipe.jpg (58.7 KB, 153 views)
File Type: jpg Larval water change pipe2.jpg (44.8 KB, 143 views)
File Type: jpg Brown spot 1a.jpg (28.5 KB, 164 views)
File Type: jpg Brown spot 1b.jpg (34.5 KB, 179 views)
File Type: jpg Brown spot 2a.jpg (33.3 KB, 149 views)
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Old 05/19/2012, 08:51 AM   #55
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Good pictures!


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Old 05/19/2012, 10:58 PM   #56
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I heard its hard to breed them


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Old 05/21/2012, 07:48 PM   #57
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I heard its hard to breed them
I think you are right.


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Old 05/21/2012, 09:11 PM   #58
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I think that was an understatement


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Old 05/21/2012, 10:01 PM   #59
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and then some


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Old 05/23/2012, 10:47 AM   #60
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Actually it's not the breeding that is tough, it's rearing the larvae


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Old 05/23/2012, 11:38 AM   #61
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Right.I think that of all the fish possible to be reared at a hobby level,they are the hardest.


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Old 05/24/2012, 06:37 AM   #62
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billsreef,Luis A M: This is so true.

I'm stuck at 7 DPH. I've seen them show eating behaviour. I'm currently looking at 50 or so 5DPH larval fish from 100 eggs. They will float at the 45 degree head down angle then swim horzontal slowly. Some will then stop and lurch forward then continue on swimming/floating in the water column. They also change direction/take a sharp turn to lurch forward - so I would assume from that, that they are finding something to eat in the soup. The jar is full of nanno, spirulina powder and kelp meal as well as rotifers and the aforementioned copepods - but not so much you can't see thru the jar. I think it's a nauplii of the Nitokra lacustris copepod they are hunting because of the brown spot i've seen in the stomach of several now. The brown spot appears in different locations and not in every larva i've sampled. This is the 1st attempt at offering a lot of different foods including particulate plant matter finely ground and re hydrated.

I was thinking you must have pristine water conditions to bring them thru to the 9 DPH starvation point because they still are extreemly fragile and prone to infections when weakened. I've seen some as young as 3 DPH who have attempted to eat. I think that at 4 DPH you must be ready to supply them with the foods they will need. At this point you start to see the silvery development in the stomach area which I think may be the stomach membrane.


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Old 05/24/2012, 08:31 PM   #63
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Good luck this species could really use more success with the hobbyist breeder.


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Old 05/26/2012, 05:38 PM   #64
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algae storage bottle/trial and errors

Algae storage bottle: For those interested this is the bottle type I use to store my nanno in the fridge and freezer. It's very convenient as it's glass, can be resealed and cleaned. Not to mention you get to empty it first.

Trial and errors:
I recently ( 2 mos ago) read in a koi forum about the use of yogurt to treat sick koi. I experimented with yogurt with live cultures on the food for my flame angel pair. These are the results:

I took a cuetip/cotton swab and swiped up some yogurt ( approx 2 drops). I next applied it to the frozen food by swiping it on the food and letting it set for 1-2 hrs in the fridge. Later I fed my pair three times that day as usual but with the yogurt laced food. I got a surprising result. Up to the point I applied the yogurt I was getting 100 or so eggs each spawn but the spawns were not every night. The spawn from the night I fed yogurt to the pair I got 300-400 eggs, however they did not develop past the pro lravae stage. For the next 1-2 nights I got larger spawns 200-300 but only a few would develop to the larvae stage. The third night after yogurt I got only 50 eggs but all were fertile and 50-60% developed to the larval stage. After that they spawned every night and I got 200+ eggs with 50-60% developing thru to the larval fish stage. I waited 10 days and did it again with nearly the same results. Now they spawn every night and I get 200-300 eggs each time with very few not fertile ( 10-20).

Question:
Did the yogurt have an effect and if so what was the cause of the effect? Please chime in.


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Old 05/26/2012, 05:44 PM   #65
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The spawn from the night I fed yogurt to the pair I got 300-400 eggs
Considering that the ovaries would have taking longer to produce those eggs for that spawn then a single nights feeding could have effected on the very same night, I expect the yogurt is just coincidental.


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Old 05/26/2012, 07:28 PM   #66
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billsreef: Thanks for the quick reply.
The question then would be "If that were so then how could I have repeated it 10 days later and got simular results?"

Quote:
Later I fed my pair three times that day as usual but with the yogurt laced food
I fed them 3x's - once at 9am ish, 1pm ish and 8pm ish with the yogurt laced food. How long does it take for the female to produce the eggs for an evenings spawn?

I wish I had more pairs I could try this out on but further experimentation like that will have to wait. I also wonder what if any effect the yogurt had on their overall health if any?

Current experiment with eggs:
I've started a new trial with the eggs, pro lravae and larval fish. I put 1/2 gallon old tank water - not boiled in the 1 gallon jar. I then added enough nanno to tint the water so you can't see thru it. I also added the copepods and hopefully none of the rotifers. I did this 2 days prior to adding any eggs. There are a lot of copepods and nauplii swimming and occupying the glass 2 nights ago. I added the eggs from the past two nights spawnings approx 300-400. I looked at the eggs to determine overall fertility (90+%) and removed dead eggs prior to addition. The air is set to deliver approx 80 bubbles per minute.

During the last experiments the result was the same: the rotifers supplied no food I could detect to the larval fish and eventually over grew the jars causing the water quality to deteriorate. All larval fish were dead after 6/7days for both jars/trials. On a good note: I now have 2 fresh rotifer cultures.


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Old 05/26/2012, 08:58 PM   #67
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Just wanted to say this project is extremely interesting and valuable! Thanks for documenting this so thoroughly.


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Old 05/26/2012, 11:33 PM   #68
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this is awesome!!!!!!


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Old 05/27/2012, 05:06 PM   #69
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Nice one. I wish you all the luck.


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Old 05/28/2012, 10:47 PM   #70
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Thanks for documenting all your efforts! Will defenitely be following along.


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Old 05/31/2012, 10:32 AM   #71
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Mrcat, HPark, El richie, Zoanut, Chuza8799 any any one I've missed: Thank you for taking the time to look this over.

I want this to be as comprehensive as I can. I wanted to included the trial with rotifers to be able to exclude them for myself. I've read several papers, articles and posts where the few mentions read, if I remember correctly, that centropyge would rather starve then eat them(no photo) but I also read that some evidence was found in their gut that they did try to eat them(included a photo showing rotifer remains in gut).

The 5/6 day jar: Is done- no survivors due to a protists bloom. There were only 10-15 which made it to the larval fish stage. The protists bloom out competed the copepods for food. No amount of water changes could bring the water quality up for long. Several hours, 5-6, after a water change the ammonia was way up arround 1.0+ These are the form of protists which took over the 1st trial from 5/26/12. They cleared the water of algae in 3 days

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10yrG...ature=youtu.be

The 3/4 day jar doesn't have the same problem. The protists are there but seem to be under better control. There was no difference in the parameters of the 2nd jar. EXCEPT: the nanno which I used came from a bottle I had in the fridge for 2 days.


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Old 05/31/2012, 11:28 AM   #72
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With the protists being so small, you might be able to clean up contaminated copepod cultures by simply sieving the pods through a small mesh sieve.

Out of curiosity, are you close to enough the coast to try wild caught plankton?


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Old 05/31/2012, 01:50 PM   #73
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billsreef: I'm about a 1/2 hr - 45 mins. away. I've been considering it. I also know for a fact where I can collect mysis, tisbe, amphapods, gracilaria and caulerpa plus a bunch of other critters and plants. I wanted to avoid this as most who struggle with these fishes don't have the ready accessability to sub tropical/tropical waters and I wanted to see what could be done with what's available to everyone.


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Old 05/31/2012, 07:14 PM   #74
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Great project. I'll be following along for sure. Thanks for sharing your efforts with us.


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Old 05/31/2012, 07:14 PM   #75
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The wild caught plankton, if it works, could provide clues based on gut content analysis. If you figure out what they are preferentially eating, you can then work on figuring how to culture what they will eat


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