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Old 09/04/2010, 03:40 PM   #26
seashark
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Ntn bearings are hard to find,i tried google it could not find it, is there any other brand that as good? I saw some other brands on ebay, but not sure about ebay brands, THANKS IN ADVANCE


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Old 09/04/2010, 05:11 PM   #27
dahenley
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NTN bearings were just local.

i was looking at bearings on freezebay, and if you type 698-2rs. there are a few options. one of which says ceramic bearing.
if i were to do it again, i would probably try one of those out. with metal on metal, there is heat and expansion and contraction. with ceramic, there is way less friction due to more precise and they are lubed and have dual urethane shields. this will keep the bearing lubricated. not just prevent contamination.

but thats "IF" i have to do it again.
i would like to have another one local that i could do a comparison with the ceramic bearing verses my standard steel shielded bearing.

maybe next time.


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Old 09/04/2010, 05:12 PM   #28
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and, before you complain, yes its a 12$ bearing verses a .99 cent one. but its still cheaper then 220$ and you will need 2 different bearings so 20$ is still better then 220$


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Old 09/04/2010, 05:20 PM   #29
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This is a common question nowadays when talking about machine tool spindles. Although most manufacturers will tell you the ceramic ball has far more advantages than the steel ball. In most cases that may be true, but is it necessary for your application? Quantum Precision is not looking to sell you the most expensive bearing for your application. We’ll work with you to provide a bearing that will perform under your conditions, and at a reasonable cost.

Provided below are som FAQ's about ceramic bearings vs. steel.


What Is A Hybrid Bearing?
A hybrid bearing is made up of metal rings and silicon nitride ceramic balls with lubricant and retainer appropriate to the type of bearing and application. The silicon nitride balls typically allow for higher speeds, lower operating temperatures, extended lubricant life and many other performance enhancements.

Why Do Ceramic Silicon Nitride Balls Improve Bearing Performance?
Compared to steel balls, Ceramic balls are lighter, smoother, stiffer, harder, corrosion resistant, and electrically resistant. These fundamental characteristics allow for a wide range of performance enhancements in bearings.

Are Ceramic Balls Brittle and Fragile?
Silicon Nitride ceramic balls do not have as high a toughness or ductility as steel. But, due to their high strength, stiffness, and microstructural make-up, they are actually much more durable than steel balls.
Compare The Material Properties of Silicon Nitride Balls to Steel Balls.

Ceramic balls are >60% lighter, >50% stiffer, >70% smoother, and much, much harder than steel balls. Ceramic balls have >100X better rolling contact fatigue life in comparison to Vacuum Melt 52100 Steel.

What Applications Use Hybrid Bearings?
The most common application today is angular contact bearings for high speed machine tool spindles. End-users are seeking higher speed, longer life, reduced lubrication, and decreased total operating costs. Ceramic balls are used in a very wide range of applications from dental handpieces to surgical saws to wing-flap actuators to electric motors.

Are Ceramic Balls More Expensive Than Steel Balls?
Yes. In direct comparison, Ceramic balls are clearly more expensive than steel balls. BUT, when assembled into a hybrid bearing, the price of the bearing assembly is actually quite competitive when compared to all steel bearings. On a Total Operating Cost basis, hybrid bearings typically always pay for themselves many times over in extended life time, enhanced performance, or increased durability. Over the past 15 years, Ceramic balls have steadily become more and more affordable for a wider range of applications as the volumes have climbed.

How Do You Make a Ceramic Ball?
Ceramic balls are made from an ISO-9000 certified process starting with micron sizes powder which is compacted and then densified at extremely high pressures and temperatures. The densified blanks are then precision finished using free-abrasive diamond lapping procedures. Grade 3 and 5 precision levels are typical in high volume batch sizes.

How Are Precision Balls Specified?
Ceramic balls (and any other finished ball from all materials) are specified by using ABMA, ISO, JIS, ASTM or other standards. The sphericity, surface finish, lot diameter variation, etc…. are precisely defined by these standards into various “Grade” levels. The highest typical Grade is 3 (denoting 3 millionths sphericity or better), then 5, then 10, etc….. Bearing companies use different grades depending on the bearing precision and application.

How Much Longer Life Can Be Expected From Hybrid Bearings Vs. Steel?
This is a tough question. Generally speaking, one can expect 2 to 5 times longer life for most applications, but it is highly dependent on operating conditions, bearing design, etc….

What Ceramic Ball Sizes Are Available?
This is an easy question. Ceramic balls are readily available from 0.5 mm (about 1/64”) to 25mm (1”) in a variety of ball grades. Ceramic balls can be made up to 3” (75mm) in diameter. The most popular sized balls tend to be from 1mm to 13 mm in terms of quantity used.

How Can I Buy Ceramic Balls?
We’re so glad you asked!! You can use the contact us inquiry page on this web-site

What Are The Draw-Backs Or Limitations To Using Ceramic Balls?
We’d like to say there are none, but Ceramic balls cannot be used for every application. A stiffer ball can increase contact stresses if raceway curvatures are not adjusted. For extremely high load applications, silicon nitride balls may not be suitable since they may accelerate steel raceway fatigue. Also, silicon nitride balls are more costly than steel balls and while they continue to be more and more affordable, they may not be economical for every application despite longer life and enhanced performance.

(taken from quantumprecisiongroup dot com)
nice read. and it really makes me want to trade out my new steel bearings for a ceramic hybrid or full ceramic)


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Its not just my tank, its OUR tank!!! :-)

240display, reef in progress

Current Tank Info: 240 display, a few frags here and there. lots of fish, and lots of watching. (230 big screen getting re-sealed and going to add to the gallonage) My wife has no clue how addicted i really am.....
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Old 09/04/2010, 05:57 PM   #30
seashark
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ceramic bearings sounds good , i'll try to find it , thanks again


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Old 09/04/2010, 06:14 PM   #31
ultreef
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Thanks for this usefull info. Sounds much better than the stock bearing that comes with the pump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dahenley View Post
This is a common question nowadays when talking about machine tool spindles. Although most manufacturers will tell you the ceramic ball has far more advantages than the steel ball. In most cases that may be true, but is it necessary for your application? Quantum Precision is not looking to sell you the most expensive bearing for your application. We’ll work with you to provide a bearing that will perform under your conditions, and at a reasonable cost.

Provided below are som FAQ's about ceramic bearings vs. steel.


What Is A Hybrid Bearing?
A hybrid bearing is made up of metal rings and silicon nitride ceramic balls with lubricant and retainer appropriate to the type of bearing and application. The silicon nitride balls typically allow for higher speeds, lower operating temperatures, extended lubricant life and many other performance enhancements.

Why Do Ceramic Silicon Nitride Balls Improve Bearing Performance?
Compared to steel balls, Ceramic balls are lighter, smoother, stiffer, harder, corrosion resistant, and electrically resistant. These fundamental characteristics allow for a wide range of performance enhancements in bearings.

Are Ceramic Balls Brittle and Fragile?
Silicon Nitride ceramic balls do not have as high a toughness or ductility as steel. But, due to their high strength, stiffness, and microstructural make-up, they are actually much more durable than steel balls.
Compare The Material Properties of Silicon Nitride Balls to Steel Balls.

Ceramic balls are >60% lighter, >50% stiffer, >70% smoother, and much, much harder than steel balls. Ceramic balls have >100X better rolling contact fatigue life in comparison to Vacuum Melt 52100 Steel.

What Applications Use Hybrid Bearings?
The most common application today is angular contact bearings for high speed machine tool spindles. End-users are seeking higher speed, longer life, reduced lubrication, and decreased total operating costs. Ceramic balls are used in a very wide range of applications from dental handpieces to surgical saws to wing-flap actuators to electric motors.

Are Ceramic Balls More Expensive Than Steel Balls?
Yes. In direct comparison, Ceramic balls are clearly more expensive than steel balls. BUT, when assembled into a hybrid bearing, the price of the bearing assembly is actually quite competitive when compared to all steel bearings. On a Total Operating Cost basis, hybrid bearings typically always pay for themselves many times over in extended life time, enhanced performance, or increased durability. Over the past 15 years, Ceramic balls have steadily become more and more affordable for a wider range of applications as the volumes have climbed.

How Do You Make a Ceramic Ball?
Ceramic balls are made from an ISO-9000 certified process starting with micron sizes powder which is compacted and then densified at extremely high pressures and temperatures. The densified blanks are then precision finished using free-abrasive diamond lapping procedures. Grade 3 and 5 precision levels are typical in high volume batch sizes.

How Are Precision Balls Specified?
Ceramic balls (and any other finished ball from all materials) are specified by using ABMA, ISO, JIS, ASTM or other standards. The sphericity, surface finish, lot diameter variation, etc…. are precisely defined by these standards into various “Grade” levels. The highest typical Grade is 3 (denoting 3 millionths sphericity or better), then 5, then 10, etc….. Bearing companies use different grades depending on the bearing precision and application.

How Much Longer Life Can Be Expected From Hybrid Bearings Vs. Steel?
This is a tough question. Generally speaking, one can expect 2 to 5 times longer life for most applications, but it is highly dependent on operating conditions, bearing design, etc….

What Ceramic Ball Sizes Are Available?
This is an easy question. Ceramic balls are readily available from 0.5 mm (about 1/64”) to 25mm (1”) in a variety of ball grades. Ceramic balls can be made up to 3” (75mm) in diameter. The most popular sized balls tend to be from 1mm to 13 mm in terms of quantity used.

How Can I Buy Ceramic Balls?
We’re so glad you asked!! You can use the contact us inquiry page on this web-site

What Are The Draw-Backs Or Limitations To Using Ceramic Balls?
We’d like to say there are none, but Ceramic balls cannot be used for every application. A stiffer ball can increase contact stresses if raceway curvatures are not adjusted. For extremely high load applications, silicon nitride balls may not be suitable since they may accelerate steel raceway fatigue. Also, silicon nitride balls are more costly than steel balls and while they continue to be more and more affordable, they may not be economical for every application despite longer life and enhanced performance.

(taken from quantumprecisiongroup dot com)
nice read. and it really makes me want to trade out my new steel bearings for a ceramic hybrid or full ceramic)



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Old 09/04/2010, 06:45 PM   #32
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you guys should honestly look into the swiss R/C bearings. You cant find a better bearing, and could likely pick up the set for 35.00-40.00 but they are the best bearings that you can buy, period. (this coming from an R/C guy)


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Old 09/04/2010, 07:25 PM   #33
ultreef
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I used to be into radio control as well. That's the reason why i say there gotta be a bearing out there that's better then the stock Vortech ones. Mass manufactured items rarely utilities the best components.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodcpierce View Post
you guys should honestly look into the swiss R/C bearings. You cant find a better bearing, and could likely pick up the set for 35.00-40.00 but they are the best bearings that you can buy, period. (this coming from an R/C guy)



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Old 09/04/2010, 07:32 PM   #34
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Ok, bearing experts, what would be the ultimate in quiet bearings for the Vortech? Would they make a substantial difference in a dry side with bearings that are in good shape, not worn out?


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Old 09/04/2010, 09:55 PM   #35
christyf5
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Wow this is just awesome!! Thanks for posting and in such detail

The bearings on my gen 1 vortech are also shot and are super noisy. Lucky I got it for a smokin deal secondhand but I hate the noise so I only run it at just barely higher than the lowest setting. Any higher and it sounds like it is going to rattle apart.

Now to the fun part. I know zero about these, I have taken mine apart to see what the issue is at the insistence of a friend who was dying to see the insides of it. We couldn't find anything amiss but he suggested that it might be the bearings. Sadly, I didn't even know what the bearings looked like and was confused by your "before" and "after" bearings replacement photos (after some quick googling I have it figured out).

However, I'd like to try the ceramic bearings and don't know how to go about ordering them without specific part numbers. Can I just order them via the size you have listed? They're kind of pricey which is fine but I hate wasting money (one is $12 and the other is $18 from an auction site) and I have no local store to shop at.

For the ceramic ones I'm seeing:

607-2RS Bearing 7 x 19 x 6
698-2RS Bearing 8 x 19 x 6

The brand is VXB Ball Bearings and they are ABEC-5 quality

Are these correct? Just wanted to check before I order.

Thanks
Christy


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Old 09/04/2010, 10:02 PM   #36
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Quote:
607-2RS Bearing 7 x 19 x 6
698-2RS Bearing 8 x 19 x 6
the
"698 - XXX"
and
"607 - XXX"

are the bearing numbers. the letters after the number describe the seals/sheilds that they come with.
there is no letter or number for ceramic. its the same number, just labeled as ceramic.

the size of the 607 bearing is " 7 X 19 X 6 "
and
the size of the 698 bearing is " 8 X 19 X 6 "

i hope this helps explain to everyone what they need.


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240display, reef in progress

Current Tank Info: 240 display, a few frags here and there. lots of fish, and lots of watching. (230 big screen getting re-sealed and going to add to the gallonage) My wife has no clue how addicted i really am.....
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Old 09/04/2010, 10:08 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dahenley View Post
the
"698 - XXX"
and
"607 - XXX"

are the bearing numbers. the letters after the number describe the seals/sheilds that they come with.
there is no letter or number for ceramic. its the same number, just labeled as ceramic.

the size of the 607 bearing is " 7 X 19 X 6 "
and
the size of the 698 bearing is " 8 X 19 X 6 "

i hope this helps explain to everyone what they need.
Perfect!!! Thanks!


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Old 09/04/2010, 11:49 PM   #38
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Interesting read. I pulled mine apart a while back and found the same problem with the bearings.
All in all the internals are pretty basic.


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Old 09/05/2010, 10:13 PM   #39
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wonder what size bearing fits the mp 10 ecotech mines brand new and noisy


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Old 09/05/2010, 10:26 PM   #40
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Noisy dry side new MP10

I have 2 MP10s I just bought new and 1 was a lot louder than the other. Sent it in and in less than a week it came back and is dead silent even at 100%. The other one "whirrrs" at 100% but is barely noticeable. I'll probably send that one back in a bit too. Wonder if they just drop in better bearings for the fix when sending back?

A bit of a pain but really like these....and very good customer service...


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Old 09/08/2010, 11:55 PM   #41
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just finished taking mine apart(mp10). it seems that both bearings are the 607 bearing but im going to head to the bearing store tomorrow and see what they have. I also googled the part number and it would seem R/C bearing are also the same size and the hobbie town in my neak of the woods carries the novarossi ceramic bearings so if i cant find the standard bearings i might go ahead and get the ceramics. After i finsish this completely ill post the how to but its really just the same as the mp40 only difference is that the base plate that mounts to the glass is actually glued on instead of screwed.


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Old 09/09/2010, 12:24 AM   #42
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Keep in mind the grade of the bearing has as much or more importance in determining the quality of a bearing as does the material it is made of. Bearings can be graded for their races as ABEC 1, 3, 5, 7 where 7 is the best, but with 5 often being the best cost/performance grade, or for their bearings. Bearing grades are a measurement of the roundness of a bearing with the lower numbers (e.g. 25) being better than a higher number (often 1000 or more). In addition "ceramic" may mean ceramic balls in a steel race or ceramic on ceramic. Ceramic bearings are not by default better than steel, but high grade ceramic bearings are "better" than high grade steel in some application, but primarily in high heat, high speed, high load, applications. know the grade of the bearing before shelling out extra money for the hype. Comparing equally graded steel to ceramic, the ceramic wins out in some applications for weight, resistance (less lubrication needed), but are a wash in many application where steel is cheaper and more than adequate. A lot of cheap low-grade ceramic bearings are sold to people who simply want to believe.


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Old 09/09/2010, 12:40 AM   #43
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Thx !!


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Old 09/09/2010, 08:40 AM   #44
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very well said Hawkdl2


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Its not just my tank, its OUR tank!!! :-)

240display, reef in progress

Current Tank Info: 240 display, a few frags here and there. lots of fish, and lots of watching. (230 big screen getting re-sealed and going to add to the gallonage) My wife has no clue how addicted i really am.....
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Old 09/09/2010, 09:09 AM   #45
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Great post and idea. As mentioned, bearings DO go bad over time. They're a part that wears and there isn't anything you can really do about it. Great info from Hawkdl2. As well, note there are sealed and greaseable (open) bearings as well. It's my hunch sealed would work a little better (as you don't want to be tearing it apart to grease all the time), but again they won't last forever.

Quality WILL matter and bad or poor quality bearings will grind, not be smooth, and make a ton of noise.

For local pickup, look for any hobby shop, specifically one that has remote control cars (the hobby where I learned more about bearings than I ever want to). Depending on the brands the shop carries, they may have either metric or standard, and will vary in quality. If the measurements are correct, the only thing you need to tell them is:

No flange, sealed (vs open) and metric 7 X 19 X 6 and 8 X 19 X 6.


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Old 09/09/2010, 07:43 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkdl2 View Post
A lot of cheap low-grade ceramic bearings are sold to people who simply want to believe.
I wish I would have seen this a couple hours ago. I ordered 2 ceramics off Ebay for about $30 total. I hope they are not the cheap low-grades. They are both ABEC-5 so hopefully it wont be to bad.


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Old 09/09/2010, 08:01 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkdl2 View Post
Keep in mind the grade of the bearing has as much or more importance in determining the quality of a bearing as does the material it is made of. Bearings can be graded for their races as ABEC 1, 3, 5, 7 where 7 is the best, but with 5 often being the best cost/performance grade, or for their bearings.
Swingrrr, you should be ok with a grade 5 bearing.


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Its not just my tank, its OUR tank!!! :-)

240display, reef in progress

Current Tank Info: 240 display, a few frags here and there. lots of fish, and lots of watching. (230 big screen getting re-sealed and going to add to the gallonage) My wife has no clue how addicted i really am.....
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Old 09/10/2010, 10:01 AM   #48
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i finished it it ended up being a 687zz bearing for the mp10. ill post the pictures as soon as i upload it.


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Old 09/13/2010, 02:32 AM   #49
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Cool thread. Anyone else try this yet?


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Old 09/13/2010, 03:31 PM   #50
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Can you guys describe "noisy" a little better. I just bought two MP10s and when the ramp up and down, you can hear them...its more of a whirrr than anything else. No rattle, unless they are not lined up correctly. Just the sound of the motor whirring up to speed and back down again. I wonder if I should look into cracking these things open to put some new bearings in there. Dead silent to me means no whirring sound, no any sound....

SaltyFin - please post a write up when you get a chance.


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