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Old 02/22/2011, 12:38 AM   #226
mrbncal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdirk View Post
Set up yesterday
Nice looking, very cool idea. Where did you find those light fixtures?


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Old 02/22/2011, 06:09 AM   #227
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Please watch this inspiring video I watched that was the nail in the coffin for me when I was on the fence about building a scrubber.




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Old 02/22/2011, 06:27 AM   #228
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This video explains that the following is removed by algae when using a scrubber.

Nitrogen
Phosphorus
Nickel
Chromium
Lead
Mercury
Vinyl Choride
Trichloroethylene
Dichloroethylene

...and goes on to explain that this is list is growing as fast as they can test for it. Today I am looking on their site for an updated list.


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Old 02/22/2011, 06:33 AM   #229
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That's interesting...I think I do remember reading something similar to that a while back, I might have to do some digging. But as far as 2 screens go, I'm not sure that you would have a substantially more effective filtration system. Not saying that 2 isn't better than one, because of redundancy factors and other reasons, but as far as strict filtration capacity goes, you might get 1.5x the filtering capacity or something like that. Since algae, like any other plant, takes in CO2 and gives off O2 when lit, and the opposite when dark, the 2 screens would be offsetting each other to some extent if they were on alternating cycles I would think.

Also - 200W each? What size tank are you planning this for? That's like 8 24" 24W lamps or 4 x 48" 54W lamps. Huge scrubbers.
I think the offsetting effect is advantagious. I'm hoping for rock solid PH.

The lighting will be 24W T5. The lamps should be here real soon.

Who knows how effective a scheme like this might be? If that link is any indication, it could be amazing.

I won't be doing this for awhile. I had everything planned out-built a house with a fishroom designed on the first floor- got into building the house and that's when the economic SHTF. Took quite a hit as I had to sell several properties, took another hit when my work slowed way down, it's still way down, it looks like we're about to take a third hit from where my wife works.

Anyway, I have a 96"x45"x30" plywood epoxy tank (minus the glass) and a big sump/fuge in my garage. We have to wait until the dust settles before moving any further. It's funny how uneven this mess has affected people. I have friends who have been unscathed. Don't get me wrong, I know it could be WAY worse than having to put off a hobby.

When I do try this, I'll post results here. I have the scrubbers almost finished, kinda just nickle and diming this reef project for now. But I will get it. If nothing else I'm stubborn.


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Old 02/22/2011, 06:39 AM   #230
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http://www.chesapeake.org/stac/agcon...ols/kangas.pdf

This is a great 28 page presentation, read through it. Its brief and helpful in understanding how ATS systems are used in large scale applications.

Lots of pictures too...


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Old 02/22/2011, 07:05 AM   #231
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The species of chemicals listed are of interest from EPA perspective. They are highly toxic metals and by-products of chlorination.

Copper is well known to be absorbed by algae. At low levels it can be exported, whereas high levels will kill it. Therapeutic levels for parasites kill algae in 1-2 weeks.


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Old 02/22/2011, 07:28 AM   #232
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http://www.physicsegypt.org/epc08/epc823.pdf

Another great document, short only 10 pages. It was written by Walter Adey, Phd, Jeffrey Bannon, MESM and Longenecker and Associate.

My favorite quotes and highlights

"it is important to note that this is a modular system, capable of expanding to any size."

I don't think they realized how small we would take it...

"A 2005 independent study of ATS, by the South Florida Water Management District and the IFAS Institute of the University of Florida, certified ATS as 5-100 times more cost efficient at removing nutrients from Everglades canal waters than the next competitor, the STA, a managed marsh system."


a marsh looks a lot like a refuge doesn't it?

"ATS and STA were the final contestants in a 15-year study of nine technologies, and ATS was the only technology that created a usable byproduct."

We are green both literately and figuratively!

"ATS removes heavy metals, break down toxic hydrocarbons, and oxygenates treated waters."

...but we already knew that...

"Depending upon season and temperature, the resulting algal turf must be harvested every 5-15 days to maintain high levels of productivity."


I have reason to believe that my system may benefit from a 5 day cleaning cycle. I will soon began testing this theory. I notice the algae on day 6 and 7 darken considerably. Yet on day 5 it is bright green in color.


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Old 02/22/2011, 07:41 AM   #233
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http://www.physicsegypt.org/epc08/epc823.pdf

Another great document, short only 10 pages. It was written by Walter Adey, Phd, Jeffrey Bannon, MESM and Longenecker and Associate.

My favorite quotes and highlights

"it is important to note that this is a modular system, capable of expanding to any size."

I don't think they realized how small we would take it...

"A 2005 independent study of ATS, by the South Florida Water Management District and the IFAS Institute of the University of Florida, certified ATS as 5-100 times more cost efficient at removing nutrients from Everglades canal waters than the next competitor, the STA, a managed marsh system."


a marsh looks a lot like a refuge doesn't it?

"ATS and STA were the final contestants in a 15-year study of nine technologies, and ATS was the only technology that created a usable byproduct."

We are green both literately and figuratively!

"ATS removes heavy metals, break down toxic hydrocarbons, and oxygenates treated waters."

...but we already knew that...

"Depending upon season and temperature, the resulting algal turf must be harvested every 5-15 days to maintain high levels of productivity."


I have reason to believe that my system may benefit from a 5 day cleaning cycle. I will soon began testing this theory. I notice the algae on day 6 and 7 darken considerably. Yet on day 5 it is bright green in color.
love it. and thanks for posting that video a few pages back. Its interesting to see what other kinds of things ATS pulls out of the water.


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Old 02/22/2011, 07:43 AM   #234
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"The above information is supported by dozens of experimental studies and hundreds of years of operational time (i.e., multiple ATS over 25 years of operation). Moreover, ATS systems have received over 15 years of research and development testing followed by a ten-year history of pilot plant construction and operation for water quality control. This not only includes ATS systems for water treatment, but also for aquaculture."

Tested for quite some time now...

"As in most photosynthesis, algal turfs abundantly release oxygen; in ATS systems, oxygen is dissolved into the overflowing water. It is not unusual for water flowing off an ATS plant in the afternoon to be highly supersaturated."


"ATS systems are well known for their abilities to “scrub” nitrogen and phosphorus. Their lack of sensitivity to nutrient concentration, until extremely low levels are achieved, provides the ability to accomplish high water purity."

"It has been known for a half century that algal cell walls adsorb heavy metals, and it is a characteristic of ATS phytoremediation, that heavy metals are removed from treated waters and sequestered into the algal biomass. This is an added value of ATS water cleaning, especially in waters with an industrial or urban component."

"ATS systems with high oxygen supersaturation break down entrained hydrocarbons. There is an extensive general research literature on this process, and a single ATS research study in the late 1990’s demonstrated that when combined with artificial ultraviolet, ATS systems have considerable capability of breaking down a variety of chlorinated hydrocarbons."

Hey that's us! ^^^


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Old 02/22/2011, 07:53 AM   #235
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Another very interesting video, not a direct ATS system, but more of a production line approach with an algae scrubber feel.




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Old 02/22/2011, 07:59 AM   #236
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I have found that speciation of the turf changes with time and nutrient levels in the tank. I am getting a turf on screen finally and also what looks like blue green algae also suggesting the screen is nitrate limited. I will add calcium nitrate as an equivalent of 0.05 ppm daily to 700 liters and watch closely for a few weeks. Attempt is create further phosphate limitation, not directly affect algae. I really don't like the idea but directly affecting with food is impossible.

River or waste water may never see this happen as it is nutrient rich.


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Old 02/22/2011, 08:05 AM   #237
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We may see an upraising of commercial ATS system being built for aquarium use. I found this article posted on reef builders website.

"Adey’s Algae Turf Scrubber patent will expire this year
Posted on January 16th, 2010 by Jake Adams 12 Comments

The Algae Turf Scrubber (ATS) is a method of aquarium water purification that was patented by Walter Adey in 1992. With this patent Adey prevented others from building or developing ATS filters which effectively stopped any independent development or innovation of this method of filtration by the general hobby community. We are pleased to learn that this patent will soon expire as explained by this contribution from Sara Allyn Mavinkurve. Thanks for the write-up Sara!

My fellow aquarists, mark your calenders. Dr. Adey’s U.S. Patent No. 5,097,795 will apparently expire on October 30, 2010. Where is this date coming from? Well, the patent was filed on Feb. 2, 1990 and issued on March 24, 1992. At that time, patent terms were 17 years. This would have set the expiration date on Feb. 2, 2007. However, note that, for whatever reason, the patent termination date “stamped” on the patent itself is Oct. 30, 2007. A patent term can be extended a bit for any number of reasons (for example, in some cases, for a delay in responding to the application). Don’t get too excited though. The patent didn’t expire on Oct. 30, 2007. Something called the ”Uruguay Round Agreements Act” extended patent terms. It did so in such a way that, for patents filed prior to June 8, 1995, the new patent term is either 20 years from the earliest filing date or 17 years from the issue date (whichever date comes later). In the case of Dr. Adey’s U.S. Patent No. 5,097,795, assuming that Feb. 2, 1990 is the earliest filing date, the patent term would expire on either Feb. 2, 2010 (20 years from the first filing date) or on March 24, 2009 (17 years from the issue date). Since Feb. 2, 2010 is the later date, that’s the one the statute suggests applies. Now, if Feb. 2, 1990 is not the earliest filing date, and there’s an earlier one, then the patent might expire even sooner than Feb. 2, 2010.
Oh, but wait… again, there might be a bit of a “catch.” Remember when I mentioned that a termination date of Oct. 30, 2007 was initially “stamped” on the patent when one would think it should have been initially determined to be Feb. 2, 2007? Well, that might indicate that the patent term was extended by a few months because of delay or for some other reason. If this is the case, at the time the patent was issued, the term was extended just under 9 months past the then-applicable 17 year term. So, just to be “safe,” we might add another 9 months to the new expiration date. That would mean that the patent expires on October 30, 2010.Thus, baring any unforseen term extensions, it looks like the patent on this method for aquarium filtration expires on October 30, 2010. I’m marking my calander.

by Sara Mavinkurve, written exclusively in her capacity as an aquarist, and for entertainment purposes only"


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Old 02/22/2011, 08:12 AM   #238
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I think we will see some, but not many. Its too cheap to DIY one at home. They will want to charge as much as a skimmer because its a "green" idea for the most part and cant because they cost 30-40 bucks at home. But i know a lot of people prob would like a nice box made for safety reasons.


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Old 02/22/2011, 08:47 AM   #239
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I think we will see some, but not many. Its too cheap to DIY one at home. They will want to charge as much as a skimmer because its a "green" idea for the most part and cant because they cost 30-40 bucks at home. But i know a lot of people prob would like a nice box made for safety reasons.
Like with anything, at first costs will be high to make up for completing product line profits. Once companies begin to complete for market share on this new product line, effectiveness goes up because of continued R&D is completed. Cost will than be driven down by R&D as well... Thus making a good and cost effective product. Additionally if people can make their own scrubbers for rather cheap that will also drive cost down. However a very important thing we are doing with this thread here is spreading the word on how well this type of filtration works.


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Old 02/22/2011, 08:58 AM   #240
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So I'm going to give this a shot.
My tank IS an algae scrubber currently. My fish are very healthy and my water quality is awesome. But not being able to see in the tank kind of sucks.

I made this out of a sterilite file box, its 12x12x8 inches. The screen ended up a little smaller then I wanted after I put it all together. The screen is 9x9. I needed to seal everything in my basement filter system to prevent heat loss and high humidity in an already humid basement. Because the bin is 8 inches wide it placed the lights perfect at the suggested 4". I'm using an 1 1/2" inch drain line placed 1" off the bottom so there is very little splash. I used a 1" feed and a huge Mag 9.5 to run it. The flow is as high as I could get without seeing actual jets of water, LOL. If the first one works out I already planned ahead for a second one. That should give my about 180 square inches on a 125 gallon DT.


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Old 02/22/2011, 09:01 AM   #241
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Well, look at skimmers. Hardly anything to them, yet they want to charge roughly 100 for the cheapest one (and thats prob on sale) and all it does is inject microbubbles into water and collects the foam in a tray. They will prob make some kind of bulb with its on min configuration so that you have to buy their bulbs too... Its marketing and greed.


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Old 02/22/2011, 09:06 AM   #242
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Nice design. Like how you used the container and mounted the lights on the side.


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Old 02/22/2011, 09:09 AM   #243
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fppf
Nice design. Like how you used the container and mounted the lights on the side.
Thanks
I just used the standard elcheapo lights, some self tapping #6 x 1/2" sheet metal screws. There does not seem to be any splash, so we will see how they hold up. I don't have anything separating them from the screen, good and bad. If they last a year that is good enough, there $8 to replace.

Oh, and I put it near a window for added effect, LOL


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Old 02/22/2011, 09:35 AM   #244
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So I'm going to give this a shot.
My tank IS an algae scrubber currently. My fish are very healthy and my water quality is awesome. But not being able to see in the tank kind of sucks.

I made this out of a sterilite file box, its 12x12x8 inches. The screen ended up a little smaller then I wanted after I put it all together. The screen is 9x9. I needed to seal everything in my basement filter system to prevent heat loss and high humidity in an already humid basement. Because the bin is 8 inches wide it placed the lights perfect at the suggested 4". I'm using an 1 1/2" inch drain line placed 1" off the bottom so there is very little splash. I used a 1" feed and a huge Mag 9.5 to run it. The flow is as high as I could get without seeing actual jets of water, LOL. If the first one works out I already planned ahead for a second one. That should give my about 180 square inches on a 125 gallon DT.
Not bad, I don't like the use of metal anything in salt water aquariums. Always keep an eye out for even the littlest bit of rust. You maybe about to seal them with some silicone. However.. you have one big problem...

Your scrubber is undersized, I would build another one straight away. It will work trust us... Your screen size is for an 80 gallon tank.

1.0 square inches of screen per gallon, with bulbs on BOTH sides (10 x 10 = 100 square inches = 100 gal)

You maybe able to split the flow from your mag 9, should be enough to feed both screens.


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Old 02/22/2011, 09:36 AM   #245
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Thanks
I just used the standard elcheapo lights, some self tapping #6 x 1/2" sheet metal screws. There does not seem to be any splash, so we will see how they hold up. I don't have anything separating them from the screen, good and bad. If they last a year that is good enough, there $8 to replace.

Oh, and I put it near a window for added effect, LOL
LOL, nice. I'm sure the algae will apreciate that. I wanted to do the same thing but i dont have a window close by my tank. Plus then i'm not sure if i would be able to use gravity to feed it and would have to waste energy on another pump.

If using the sun would allow you to not use lights for the 16hr period, i would totally get a pump since then i wouldnt have to use lights....


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Old 02/22/2011, 09:49 AM   #246
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Tank looks good, love the athenas!!
One comment on your scrubber, the lighting too close at the top and too far away at the bottem. Any chance you could increase the length of PVC that way the lights could be angled better?

Ps... How the help did your camera just go scuba! Is it water proof?
im trying to raise it more. planning on building an acrylic box design down the road

yes, fujifilm cam. Its waterproof. i take it to the beach. its great. lol. all i have to do is rinse it off with freshwater when im done.


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Old 02/22/2011, 09:51 AM   #247
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Yeah, I knew it was going to be a little undersized, that is why I plumbed in for 2. But I told my wife it would only cost $40 and after everything was said and done it was more like $80. So I need to let the first one settle a little and blow over before I show up at home with another bin, 2 more lights that will be on 16 hours a day, and more fittings. I split it into to for alternate cleanings.

I don't know if the window will help at all, it was more the only good spot. I have as much water in the basement now as I do in the DT.

I don't like anything metal either, unless its 316L or Titanium. I did not have any stainless screws that size at home. They are plated though, I will keep an eye on them and replace with stainless when they start to rust a little. Or if they last as long as the reflectors just replace them all at once.


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Old 02/22/2011, 09:56 AM   #248
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your the one that used the stainless for heating your water with your water heater right? How long ago was that and is the stainless still holding up? Wondered how the corrosion of the steel (i know its very very slow) effects corals and such.

Sorry for going off topic. Maybe i should PM you next time.


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Old 02/22/2011, 10:00 AM   #249
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Yes, PM Sent


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Old 02/22/2011, 02:36 PM   #250
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Quote:
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algae, like any other plant, takes in CO2 and gives off O2 when lit, and the opposite when dark
Same goes for zooxanthellate corals, so maybe it's beneficial to run an ATS at night to avoid oxygen depletion in the tank? Especially if no skimmer is used.


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