Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Advanced Topics
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 12/02/2011, 07:13 AM   #126
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC Member
 
der_wille_zur_macht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 17,749
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFishMan65 View Post
Your recommending 0.5 watts of LEDs per gallon. Would you mind converting that to mcd per gallon. I am looking at 2 LEDs:
1600 mcd / (1.85 V * 0.2 a) = 4,324 mcd / watt
2800 mcd / (1.7 V * 0.3a) = 5,490 mcd / watt
You will not neither of these are 1 watt . But one produces 25% more light. Don't you love the LED efficiency it makes picking the right one that much harder
Can you link to these LEDs?

There are a few HP LEDs out there that I was looking at but these sound like old fashioned low power LEDs. Would be interesting to compare efficiency, and also distribution, as some of the red HPs have pretty narrow built-in optics, unfortunately.


__________________
Inconveniencing marine life since 1992

"It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)
der_wille_zur_macht is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2011, 07:28 AM   #127
TheFishMan65
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,618
I did a search on Mouser (or maybe Future), so I don't have link. If you can't find them let me know and I will try and track them down. They are older T1 3/4 gumdrop types. I thought maybe if the efficiency was close this would be cheaper and give better spread.

Apparently the Cree site is down so I am having trouble figuring efficiency but I found an Binning and labeling (Apr 08). The best Reds only produce about 40 Lumen at 350ma.

Ahha from led supply 3 up star 137.1 lumen at .35amps and 6.3 volts so 62 lumens per watt (must be a better grade then the old dinning and labeling). So not much more efficient than CFL, but all the spectrum is usable by the algae.


__________________
Click my home page for Thread Summaries

Current Tank Info: 75 gallon lps and fish
TheFishMan65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2011, 07:36 AM   #128
TheFishMan65
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,618
Ok so apparently Candella is light in a cone and Lumen is total light output. So there is not direct comparison, but I did find this:
Quote:
You canít directly convert since they measure different things. The most useful explanation Iíve found is that lumens measure light output at the source, while candelas measure the light emitted per unit of solid angle, a quantity that conveniently does not vary with the distance from the source of the light. So, they measure different things, and thereís no direct conversion. Update: I didnít find that answer very satisfying either, so I worked out the conversion details and made a conversion calculator for you to use.

Light bulbs and LEDs sold for illumination tend to carry ratings in lumens. Indicator LEDs tend to be rated in candelas.

You can also use this table to get an approximate conversion from candelas to lumens. Find your LED beam width in degrees, and divide the candelas number in your specs by the cd/lm factor listed for that beam angle to get lumens.
Code:
beam angle    cd/lm
5            167.22
10            41.82
15            18.60
20            10.48
25             6.71
30             4.67
35             3.44
40             2.64
45             2.09



__________________
Click my home page for Thread Summaries

Current Tank Info: 75 gallon lps and fish
TheFishMan65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2011, 07:54 AM   #129
TheFishMan65
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,618
Here is an interesting one (a link just for DWZM)
5200 lumen at 20ma and 1.85 volts and 30 degrees
so 5.200 / 4.67 (from table above) = 1.11 lumens
1.11 / (.02 * 1.85) = 30 lumen per watt
So half the efficiency of the XP-Es I found above. But it is only $0.20 as opposed to $12.60 for the one from LED Supply. Sounds great but you need 137.1 / 1.11 = 123 of these so $24.70. So the moral of the story is a good 3 watt LED is still better than lots (yes I mean) lots of little ones.


__________________
Click my home page for Thread Summaries

Current Tank Info: 75 gallon lps and fish
TheFishMan65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2011, 08:22 AM   #130
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
 
Floyd R Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: West Des Moines, IA
Posts: 4,248
Blog Entries: 15
I'm not sure how this really applies. I know that the fixtures I had made contain 120 degree LEDs 3/4" OC and they're 1W each. They are blindingly bright and I have no doubt that they will grow algae very well. I understand the candela thing as this is a measure of light when you focus the beam into a specific angle, and if you allow the light to spread across a greater angle then you get a lower candela level spread across a greater angle. This is the point though of an LED fixture for a scrubber, you want the light spread out as much as possible so that you don't burn the algae.

For most people doing DIY, 3W LEDs will probably do just fine, but those are for the DIYers, and they are taking into consideration many other factors specific to their system. They can make modifications to allow for diffusion and distance specific to their setup/space limitations. A stock fixture with an array of 1W LEDs will be more robust for those not quite so handy.

Even coverage is the issue I am trying to achieve with the 1W array as I believe this is important for primary filtration and minimum screen size. the information you are posting is very interesting, I hadn't thought about any of that being a factor.


__________________
Algae Scrubber Basics!!! GOOGLE "algaescrubber zoho"
General Interest Forums --> Advanced Topics --> Algae Scrubber Basics (sticky)
--> POSTS #3251-64 (Basics), #5206 (Cleaning), #6884 (LEDs), #729
Floyd R Turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2011, 09:37 AM   #131
TheFishMan65
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,618
Actually the XP-E I mentioned above are only running at .74 watts for .35 amps so maybe 1.5 amps at 700. So in that sense they are 1 watt LED. Ah the fun of varying the current. Did you find a link to the ones you had made?

I will be replacing bio-pellets and people complain about the cost of replacing those. I have not replaced many and would hate to see the cost of electricity for the scrubber be more that the pellet replacement cost. That is why I am looking at efficiency. And because efficiency can vary so much I was trying to figure out a better rule than .5 watts per gallon. In the above cases effiency doubled does that mean .25 watts per gallon of good LEDs or 1 watt for bad LEDs. Now I think you see where I am heading.


__________________
Click my home page for Thread Summaries

Current Tank Info: 75 gallon lps and fish
TheFishMan65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2011, 09:38 AM   #132
TheFishMan65
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,618
Actually the XP-E I mentioned above are only running at .74 watts for .35 amps so maybe 1.5 amps at 700. So in that sense they are 1 watt LED. Ah the fun of varying the current. Did you find a link to the ones you had made?

I will be replacing bio-pellets and people complain about the cost of replacing those. I have not replaced many and would hate to see the cost of electricity for the scrubber be more that the pellet replacement cost. That is why I am looking at efficiency. And because efficiency can vary so much I was trying to figure out a better rule than .5 watts per gallon. In the above cases efficiency doubled does that mean .25 watts per gallon of good LEDs or 1 watt for bad LEDs. Now I think you see where I am heading.


__________________
Click my home page for Thread Summaries

Current Tank Info: 75 gallon lps and fish

Last edited by TheFishMan65; 12/02/2011 at 09:45 AM.
TheFishMan65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2011, 10:01 AM   #133
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
 
Floyd R Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: West Des Moines, IA
Posts: 4,248
Blog Entries: 15
you have to remember that the new lighting guidelines and feeding guidelines have kind of changed the rules. Originally it was 1 sq in per gallon, and 1 watt per square inch. Now it's 12 square inches or screen per cube of food (or equivalent). Also you can double the lighting to 2W/ sq in and halve the photoperiod to power through to the green algae.

From what I've seen for results from good DIY LED builds, it seems that LEDs were ahead of this game. The intensity of light in the spectrum that algae prefers without excess light in bandwidths that algae doesn't efficiently use seems to lead to green growth much more readily. So I still say that, as a rule of thumb, 1W LED per sq in of screen (dimensional, which means 0.5W /sq in on each side if you want to get picky) is what we should be shooting for. I can't recall what the wattage rating on the fixture I have it, but I believe it is in the range of 65W and I intended it to illuminate a screen that was about 8 x 15 but it may be slightly smaller, so I'm hitting this right at about 0.5 W/ sq in on each side with 2 fixtures.

If you go by the old lighting method, then yes you could go 0.25W/sq in on each side, or 0.5W/sq dimensionally. Just so I'm clear if you were trying to light up a 10x10 screen, 100 sq in, 50W LED total, 25W LED on each side, which 'translates' to 100W T5HO total, 50W T5HO on each side.

That is of course assuming that I am correct in being able to reduce wattage by half when going to LED vs T5HO/CFL. And this assumption mandates the use of 630/660 reds, maybe a blue or two, and NO whites, nothing else.

I like where you are going with this though. Really pinning down the exact efficiency of various types/brands/bins of LEDs could help you get the 'perfect' efficiency. Though I'm sure most people would just add a couple more LEDs and call it good, but you go man!

No word on the LEDs on my fixtures yet. Too busy...


__________________
Algae Scrubber Basics!!! GOOGLE "algaescrubber zoho"
General Interest Forums --> Advanced Topics --> Algae Scrubber Basics (sticky)
--> POSTS #3251-64 (Basics), #5206 (Cleaning), #6884 (LEDs), #729
Floyd R Turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2011, 10:24 AM   #134
TheFishMan65
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,618
Quote:
If you go by the old lighting method, then yes you could go 0.25W/sq in on each side, or 0.5W/sq dimensionally. Just so I'm clear if you were trying to light up a 10x10 screen, 100 sq in, 50W LED total, 25W LED on each side, which 'translates' to 100W T5HO total, 50W T5HO on each side.
Not quite. What I am referring to is that the HP LEDs produce 60 lumens per watt. The gumdrops produce 30 lumens per watt. So if your fixture is 65 watts is it 3900 watts (60 * 65) or 1950 watts(30 * 65). Now say I want the same amount of light because I have the exact same fixture as you (you made it I just need to supply my own lights ). Without knowing which LEDs you are running I could get double the light (gum drops you HP me) or half the light (HP you gum drops me). I run the risk of poor growth from no light or burning the algae and my fixture is the exact same as your right down to the LED wattage. I post the problem

I know get dimmable drivers so the algae can be acclimated.


__________________
Click my home page for Thread Summaries

Current Tank Info: 75 gallon lps and fish
TheFishMan65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2011, 10:49 AM   #135
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
 
Floyd R Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: West Des Moines, IA
Posts: 4,248
Blog Entries: 15
I see where you're coming from. It is very good that you brought this up. What is a gumdrop though?


__________________
Algae Scrubber Basics!!! GOOGLE "algaescrubber zoho"
General Interest Forums --> Advanced Topics --> Algae Scrubber Basics (sticky)
--> POSTS #3251-64 (Basics), #5206 (Cleaning), #6884 (LEDs), #729
Floyd R Turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2011, 10:55 AM   #136
TheFishMan65
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,618
Look up 5mm or T1 3/4 LEDs. They don't need MCPCB and are usually used as indicators.

This is close. Didn't look up the exact size of that one, but you will get the idea.


__________________
Click my home page for Thread Summaries

Current Tank Info: 75 gallon lps and fish
TheFishMan65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2011, 11:02 AM   #137
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
 
Floyd R Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: West Des Moines, IA
Posts: 4,248
Blog Entries: 15
OK, that's what I thought they were. I would never recommend those anyways, only HP LEDs on stars or PCBs.


__________________
Algae Scrubber Basics!!! GOOGLE "algaescrubber zoho"
General Interest Forums --> Advanced Topics --> Algae Scrubber Basics (sticky)
--> POSTS #3251-64 (Basics), #5206 (Cleaning), #6884 (LEDs), #729
Floyd R Turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2011, 11:08 AM   #138
TheFishMan65
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,618
I thought they might be cheaper. I had just never done the math to figure out how many it would take. Many more than I thought (should have believed kcress). I still wonder how much variation there is in HP leds.


__________________
Click my home page for Thread Summaries

Current Tank Info: 75 gallon lps and fish
TheFishMan65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2011, 01:26 PM   #139
Nathan.Titulaer
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 213
I am restarting my scrubber project and was looking at Home Depot and they sell 2700 k Bulbs with LED's has anyone thought of using these? In my mind if the same kelvin works for CFL and T5 why not the LED bulbs? Mine won't be up and running until after new years but I have a 12x12 red and blue Ebay grow panel laying around I will use on one side and debating a LED bulb on the other.


Nathan.Titulaer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/02/2011, 01:45 PM   #140
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
 
Floyd R Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: West Des Moines, IA
Posts: 4,248
Blog Entries: 15
$5 says that panel is the 'gumdrop' type LED that TFM and I just discussed. It has been tried, not intense enough. The home depot LED lamps are not grow lamps. CFL 2700k and LED 2700k are not the same. a CFL uses different combinations of phosphors on the inside of the lamp to achieve a certain color temp, so you can have 2 lamps with different spectral graphs and they will both be 2700K. LEDs are not that way, so they are not comparable. For scrubbers with LED you need something that is specifically a grow lamp. All red and maybe a few blues. It will not look like any lamp that you would put in your home. For instance, this is what the light I had made looks like when shining on my blinds in our house




__________________
Algae Scrubber Basics!!! GOOGLE "algaescrubber zoho"
General Interest Forums --> Advanced Topics --> Algae Scrubber Basics (sticky)
--> POSTS #3251-64 (Basics), #5206 (Cleaning), #6884 (LEDs), #729
Floyd R Turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/03/2011, 08:54 AM   #141
Rafi
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Iran
Posts: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by N728NY View Post


***Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the higher the kelvin rating on your lighting the better for the turf scrubbers? Please set me straight, have I been doing this backwards?
its simple.with 10000 or higher kelvin you'll never see dangerous turf on your tank.mostly you can see brown Algae which is not a big deal for tank.
you may notice people who use T5 after 6 month change their lamps because the quality reduced and with bad quality you will see turfs and we exactly want a bad light!
I have yellow LED on my tank(just one spot) and i have lots of algae on that place.

take a look at my tank and my ATS :
64Gallon tank with 42 leds(3W half blue half white)



this is FPL florescent that i use for my ATS (2800 lumen is for yellow color and 2600 for white)




and here come the result:







and ATS base



And ATS with 36W yellow FPL at the top of the sump




ps. sorry for my bad writing. English is not my first language



Last edited by Rafi; 12/03/2011 at 09:03 AM.
Rafi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/03/2011, 10:34 AM   #142
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
 
Floyd R Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: West Des Moines, IA
Posts: 4,248
Blog Entries: 15
Rafi, your pictures aren't showing up. I can tell you that you are definitely wrong on the use of yellow or blue/white for growing algae on a scrubber with maximum efficiency. I'm not saying that you won't grow algae, because just about any light source will grow *some* algae. But the results of literally hundreds of scrubber builds working on tanks throughout the world has revealed that the *best* light spectrum for algae growth is heavy in red, with maybe some blue.

This chart explains it



The yellow spectrum is right in the middle at the lowest point. Chlorophyll A and B do not use this efficiently. You cannot rely on this color temperature for effective filtration.

If you're talking about how the lights "look" to the human eye, that's immaterial. The CFLs that are recommended for scrubbers are the "warm white" (generally, 2700-3000K specifically) which are heavy in red spectrum and produce the best growth.

Like I said, your scrubber may grow algae just fine and might keep your N and P down to manageable levels in the system that you run, but if there is a mitigation circumstance, such as a fish dying that you can't get to, or if a kid dumps a bunch of food in the tank, or something else our of the ordinary, it may not be able to handle the issue because the scrubber is not efficient or effective enough. Properly built scrubbers are capable of handling such situations and can be a huge safety net for a very expensive system.


__________________
Algae Scrubber Basics!!! GOOGLE "algaescrubber zoho"
General Interest Forums --> Advanced Topics --> Algae Scrubber Basics (sticky)
--> POSTS #3251-64 (Basics), #5206 (Cleaning), #6884 (LEDs), #729
Floyd R Turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2011, 10:12 AM   #143
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC Member
 
der_wille_zur_macht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 17,749
I would be interested to hear from people who are using a format other than the standard "hang a sheet of mesh from a slotted pipe." I understand why this is the most popular approach and that it's easy to build and get results from, but I'm wondering if it's best for me in the long term.

I am most interested in configurations that:

1) Are cheap
2) Are more compact/self contained (this is my biggest complaint with the common vertical screen, by the time you've put lamps with good reflectors and splash guards on it, it's HUGE and awkward.)


__________________
Inconveniencing marine life since 1992

"It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)
der_wille_zur_macht is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2011, 10:24 AM   #144
BluScrnOdeth
Darin Schmidt
 
BluScrnOdeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 537
It wont be huge and awkward for long, im working on a design i plan on starting in Jan and have a couple beta testers lined up.


BluScrnOdeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2011, 01:19 PM   #145
Nathan.Titulaer
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 213
I get what you are saying about the led vs cfl. I figured as much but did not want to admit it to myself. My led panel is a grow light panel off Ebay so it is heavy in the red and some blues. It has a 12x12 screen for a 40B so I am hoping to experiment with different lights and designs to get the best use of space and scrubbing.


Nathan.Titulaer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2011, 03:09 PM   #146
der_wille_zur_macht
Team RC Member
 
der_wille_zur_macht's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 17,749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo View Post
This chart explains it
The chart makes it clear why you'd want 660nm red LEDs and makes it pretty clear that typical cool/neutral/warm white LEDs are all bad choices.

But why aren't we throwing RBs or violets on the rigs in much higher ratios, given the huge spikes around 420 and 450 nm?


__________________
Inconveniencing marine life since 1992

"It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)
der_wille_zur_macht is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2011, 03:13 PM   #147
TheFishMan65
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 4,618
And why 630 while we are at it?

TIA


__________________
Click my home page for Thread Summaries

Current Tank Info: 75 gallon lps and fish
TheFishMan65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2011, 06:12 PM   #148
Floyd R Turbo
Either busy or sleeping
 
Floyd R Turbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: West Des Moines, IA
Posts: 4,248
Blog Entries: 15
because the hort guy I have been working with said that 630s flat out beat 660s for plant growth watt for watt due to intensity. It is not known whether this translate to algae. hence my ever-pending experiment


__________________
Algae Scrubber Basics!!! GOOGLE "algaescrubber zoho"
General Interest Forums --> Advanced Topics --> Algae Scrubber Basics (sticky)
--> POSTS #3251-64 (Basics), #5206 (Cleaning), #6884 (LEDs), #729
Floyd R Turbo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/06/2011, 10:43 PM   #149
N728NY
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 28
This is all good stuff! I can't wait to see what you guys come up with as definite answers! Some of this is a bit over my head, but it looks like once it's all dialed in we will have a definite answer on which exact led configuration may work the best! It's too bad the led retrofit bulbs can't work, would definitely make it easy for everyone to just swap out their current cfls.


N728NY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12/07/2011, 02:59 AM   #150
Northside Reef
Premium Member
 
Northside Reef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Chanhassen, MN
Posts: 1,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo View Post
For scrubbers with LED you need something that is specifically a grow lamp. All red and maybe a few blues. It will not look like any lamp that you would put in your home. For instance, this is what the light I had made looks like when shining on my blinds in our house

Does this look right?

http://ledwholesalers.com/store/inde...&productId=398

Might be a little too small I am guessing.


__________________
Back again for more fun! See how much fun by checking out my home page.

Current Tank Info: 280 Gallon Display, 92 gallon Cube Clown and anemone tank. 700 gallon filter shed that ties it all together.
Northside Reef is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
algae scrubber/heavy metals charles matthews Randy Holmes-Farley 6 11/03/2016 09:32 PM
xenia scrubber instead of algae scrubber? dolt SPS Keepers 40 04/07/2011 12:34 PM
Try again: Is anybody running an algae scrubber as primary filter. Frick-n-Frags Reef Discussion 166 08/03/2008 04:58 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:55 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2020 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2014
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.